Sinokrot: Academic Report on Successful PA Company

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36 responses

  1. Drew says:

    Hello,

    I met a Palestinian woman who was 5 when she and her family left her home in Palestine in 1948 to take temporary refuge in Syria. She has never been able to go home. What a horrific crime.

    Do you care?

    Should this woman receive justice?

    • Sheri Oz says:

      Come to Israel and I can introduce you to any of the 800K Jewish refugees thrown out of Arab lands in which they lived for up to thousands of years (such as Iraq), just because they were Jews, in retaliation for the fact that the Jews won the war of annihilation started by the Arab states in 1948 because they could not countenance a Jewish country in lands that Muslims once controlled (you do know, of course, that the Arabs invaded and colonized lands across MENA in 650 and then the Ottomans (Turks) controlled this land as part of their empire (what they saw as a Caliphate). Jewish property was stolen and they will never get it back nor be allowed to return.

      All such victims of war are unfortunate and such victims of war can be found around the world in many ethnic and national groups. What is justice when these are the results of war? Are you willing to provide the same justice you want for the Palestinian woman as you want for Jewish and other refugees of wars? And when does such justice begin to be applied? While the war is still ongoing or only after peace will have been achieved (perhaps as part of a peace deal, as is stipulated, in fact, in peace deals Israel has offered to the Palestinian Authority).

      • Drew says:

        I told you about a tragedy that befell a 5 year old and her family and you pretty much ignored this tragedy. How sad and dehumanizing. How insensitive.

  2. Drew says:

    The family that I described was not a victim of war. You delude yourself. The family was a victim of settler colonialism. The family was a victim of people who intended to dispossess non-Jews from the land, as Herzl wrote in his diary in about 1895. The family was the victim of cruel and inhuman people like David Ben-Gurion, Yitzhak Rabin, and and Moshe Dayan.

    • Sheri Oz says:

      You do not understand the term “settler colonialism” if that is how you view Israel. And you know a few propaganda bytes but not history.

      • Drew says:

        We can debate settler colonialism, but there is no doubt that political Zionism included and still includes the dispossession of non-Jews from the land. Where this dispossession is not possible, then Israel has cordoned off the Palestinians.

        The evidence of all this is not only overwhelming, but the proof is in the pudding.The Zionists have dispossessed the non-Jews in the land, have stolen their property, have stolen their land, have stolen their bank accounts, and the contents of their safe deposit boxes, and have cordoned them off in Gaza and Areas A and B of the West Bank.

        • Sheri Oz says:

          Show me proof that Israel has stolen non-Jewish property, land, bank accounts and contents of safe deposit boxes. That is absolutely ridiculous but if you show me proof I will believe it. We have cordoned off Gaza and Areas A and B for security reasons. If you pooh-pooh our need for security then, while I imagine you accept that Black Lives Matter, you do not believe that Jewish Israeli lives matter. And in spite of the fact that we have cordoned off these areas beyond our borders, as most nations do, we still admit Palestinian Arabs in to work and to get medical care and to get professional training.

          • Drew says:

            Wow, and you just accused me of not knowing history. The crimes that I listed are well known facts. I’ll get you a link to an article about the stolen bank accounts and the stolen contents of safe deposit boxes – at gunpoint. As for stolen land and property, really, you don’t know about this?

          • Drew says:

            Here you go:

            https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/12269876/Mitter_gsas.harvard_0084L_11308.pdf?sequence=4&isAllowed=y&fbclid=IwAR28_LWwCZ-B8ASjkv1a37VCW06DXLo-OT-VM4hmir970sw9RGHUYDEwGi8

            As for stolen land and property, you must be familiar with Israel’s Absentee Property Laws, enacted in the early 1950s, by which it seized land and property of Palestinian Arabs that were expelled or denied reentry, and for which not a single penny has ever been paid. This is theft on a grand scale.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            Thank-you for this link. This is horrifying and there are other things that happened in Israel in the 50s that horrify me. It is not surprising that I was not aware of this freezing (stealing) of accounts and contents of safe deposit boxes as the author, himself, writes that this has not been reported or examined in any other scholarly journals. His own thesis apparently was not published in a journal and the thesis was only cited 8 times, of those 8 only 2 were cited by another few articles. I appreciate you bringing this to my attention and I will keep it in mind as I continue my research in various topics.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            I did a bit more exploring and found out that there were Barclay’s Bank branches in Gaza and the West Bank which were occupied 1948-1967 by Egypt and Jordan, respectively. It would be interesting to check what happened to the moneys and safe deposit boxes of Palestinian Arabs in those branches because Barclay’s pulled out of the region totally in 1948. I wonder about the Ottoman Bank in Gaza and the West Bank. Just curious.

            As for absenttee property laws – yes. I know about those. As I told you before, compensation for these is already in the peace deals that the PA has repeatedly refused. So the refugees will be compensated when there will be a peace accord and not a moment before. That is not theft. The amount of compensation has to be negotiated.

          • Drew says:

            I’ve explained to you why the Absentee Property Laws amounted to theft and why Israel’s offer to pay when there is a final settlement is without a doubt a specious argument. The properties were stolen in 1948, long before the PA was formed and long before Israel offered any settlement. In 1948, is when compensation became due, although the property owners still own the property and still have a right to return to them. And I hope that they return someday, those that want to, all of them, and that they are paid back rent since 1948 with interest. They are still the property owners.

            Please don’t tell me that the appropriation of the property was “legal”. So was slavery, and so was what the Nazis did. Something can be legal and still be morally reprehensible, like the Absentee Property Laws.

            We’ll agree to disagree on this.

            Has it ever cross mind to say I’m sorry or to apologize when you hear a story about the 5 year old that I told you about? That would be a good start toward peace, instead of blaming the victims. The Zionists need to admit to and atone for their crimes, as do Palestinians who have committed terrorist attacks. But only one side has engaged in massive state sponsored terrorism, oppression, discrimination, segregation, et cet.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            You are now comparing Zionism to slavery and the Nazis? This just shows that we cannot agree on anything because we do not agree on a basic premise — that the Jews are the indigenous people whose nationality was established on the Land of Israel. That is what allows you to regard the Jews as settler-colonialists. That is what allows you to compare the Zionists with slavers and Nazis. So no, I will not apologize for having won a war of intended extermination against us that they started. That 5 YO girl is the collatoral damage of THEIR war. Had the Arab neighbours not started the war in 1948, history would be far different. So no, I do not apologize. And I also do not accept your final statement. We are doing what we can to survive, thrive, and still be as ethical as possible. I can hear you snort at that. But since you believe that the establishment of the modern State of Israel was a mistake, that we Israelis are the product of original sin, then we really will not agree on anything because you will not look at what we are doing to try to be all of that: surviving, thriving and still ethical.

            I will examine where we make, and have made, mistakes. But I will not apologize for winning the wars waged against us.

          • Drew says:

            Nothing I wrote came close to comparing Zionists with Nazis or slavery. Try reading what I wrote again.

            There was never a war of annihilation, that is Hasbara in the extreme.

            Zionists started the strife in the land. Zionism is the root of the strife.

            The family that I described were not combatants. Your condemnation of an entire group of people,
            even if the Zionists were not to blame, based on the actions of a small percentage of those people is reprehensible. That’s called collective punishment and you’re a big fan of it.

            You are not indigenous to the land. You’re from Toronto and your known ancestors are from Europe. The indigenous argument is sophistry.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            Try reading what you wrote again – comparing legality is comparing the issues.

            I am not condemning an entire group of people — you are.

            Perhaps you should read the article I wrote and published on this website about Ras Ali. Gives a different perspective to being Bedouin in Israel.

            And perhaps you should also read people like Bassem Eid, Shadi Halloul Riso, Inon Dan Kehati, Jonathan Elkhoury on Facebook for starters. These are people who have cricitism about Israel but also see the country from a different perspective.

          • Drew says:

            The Zionists dispossessed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians before Israel declared independence. Not sure from whom they think they were declaring independence. They weren’t. It was a conquest.

            The notion that the Arabs started a war of annihilation is specious.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            Can you please give me a link to a source for these two statements? 1. that the Zionists dispossessed hundreds of thousands of Palestinians (who did not call themselves Palestinians back then) before 1948; and 2. that the Arabs did not start a war of annihilation against us. You see that I read what you provide me and if there is something in what you provide, I incorporate it into my understanding of the situation and of history.

          • Drew says:

            Let’s get down to brass tacks. The reason that 5 year girl and her family could no go home was not because of a war of annihilation or because they were enemy combatants. The reason was that they weren’t Jewish.

            The Zionists wanted a sovereign Jewish state in Palestine with a majority Jewish population. That necessarily entailed dispossessing the non-Jewish population, which the Palestinian Arabs knew quite well. That necessarily entailed not recognizing the Palestinians’s right to self-determination. There are some of the causes of the strife.

            The Zionist leadership could disregard the rights of the Palestinians because they racists/bigots, like Chaim Weissman.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            when you provide me with sources I will deal with what you say here.

          • Drew says:

            Giving examples of things that were legal but immoral is In no way comparing those things. It’s simply offering up proof that just because something is done according to a state’s law doesn’t make it right.

          • Drew says:

            As for an alleged war of annihilation, it’s a basic fact that the Arab forces marshaled against the Zionists were not substantial enough to come close to annihilating Israel. As for the Palestinians, they couldn’t even keep themselves from being expelled, how on earth were they going to annihilate anyone?

            You can read about the balance of forces here:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War

            There wasn’t even substantial fighting between Israel, on the one hand, and Syria, Lebanon, and Trans-Jordan/Iraqi forces, on the other hand, especially after the first phase of the war. Trans-Jordan, which had the best Arab army, wasn’t even looking to get into a war with Israel. King Abdullah only wanted to expand his kingdom into the West Bank, which is exactly what he did.

            Egypt, the only other Arab army that was involved, had its best forces tied down in Yemen, if I recall correctly. Egyptian forces did make inroads toward Tel-Aviv, but those forces were so inept that a small group of fighters at Yad Mordechai slowed the Egyptian advance for, I believe,
            6 days. Thereafter, Israeli forces easily routed the Egyptian army.

            Arab leaders made some horrible boasts, but Israel’s neighboring Arab countries never launched a war of annihilation. That is a fatuous claim. It was Israel doing the annihilation, specifically, expelling Palestinians or not allowing innocents who fled a war zone to return home, land theft, property theft, robbing banks and safe deposit boxes.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            You are so wrong. And wikipedia is not a source I respect. But at least you did not quote electronic intifada or the like. Here is a book that you may consider reading or ignore as I assume you ignored my earlier suggestions for other reading: The Rise of Israel. It deals with the issues you raise better than I can and in more detail than what I can do in a comment. Benny Morris changed his views as he learned more in later years. Ilan Pappe and Khalidi are more propagandist than academic researchers.

            I told you why I was totally unaware of the bank situation – it has not been reported and the study you suggested I read has only been cited 8 times. I have a feeling many people are not aware of that having happened. I will not apologize for not having known or for saying it was a ridiculous idea when you said it at first. Are you so easily offended that you need an apology? I would have thought that my expressing appreciation and telling you I found it informative was enough to show respect.

            This is getting tiresome. You regard us as a settler-colonial society and yet we are a true revivial of an ancient indigenous people. If you are Jewish, then I suppose you also attended Pesach Seders that ended with “Next Year in Jerusalem”. How did we manage to maintain our culture, spiritual traditions and language over 2000 years of exhile in often hostile host countries around the globe? We are a miracle and I am proud to be a member of the tribe. Doesn’t mean I idealize us or think we never err. We certainly do. But we are a work in progress and I am very proud of what we have accomplished and at our efforts to maintain a moral society. Snort all you want at that. It is so true. Just look up on Facebook the people I suggested to see what minorities who live here and are not mostly not Muslim feel.

          • Drew says:

            We agree, you ignore inconvenient facts.

            And you put words in my mouth. I have never said the Palestinians or the countries surrounding Israel are wholly innocent or without agency. But I have focused on the root of the strife, political Zionism.

          • Drew says:

            Please read this article and watch the movie, Blue Box.

            Goodbye.

          • Drew says:

            Whoops, forgot the link:

            Looking the Nakba dead in the eye – Opinion

            That should be a link to an article in Haaretz.

        • Drew says:

          I’ll provide sources when I have time.

          You accused me of not knowing history, but you ask me to document well known facts. You called my allegations about the seizure of Arab bank accounts and the contents of safe deposit boxes ridiculous. Then I sent you proof of this.

          It’s high time that you apologize to me.

        • Drew says:

          As for expulsions, the sources are numerous. You can read Rashid Khalidi’s The One Hundred Years War On Palestine, chapter 2 I believe, Nur Masalah’s Expulsion Of The Palestinians, or The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe. Benny Morris also has written on this.

          This article will give you an overview:

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

        • Drew says:

          Labels like settler colonialism, at the end of the day, don’t matter, facts matter. There were expulsions of innocents and a refusal to allow innocents to go home, all based on religious discrimination. There was property theft, land theft and bank robbery. The Zionists always intended to dispossess the non-Jews from the land they intended to turn into a Jewish state, as Herzl wrote in his diary in 1895. The evidence of this is overwhelming. All these crimes cry out for justice, just as wrongs against Jews do.

          I am an atheist and I am not a fan of the three not so great not so monotheistic religions. I have 100% Jewish ancestry.

          Ancient Hebrews spread throughout the world by emigration and expulsions, and I believe mostly by emigration. After all, by 70 A.D., there were Hebrew communities throughout the Roman Empire, and people exile by Rome as slaves did not fare well.

          I mouthed next year in Jerusalem as a child. The notion that this gave me a property right, or any right, in the land between the river and the sea is arrant nonsense. The notion that you, from Toronto, went home to Israel from exile, is more arrant nonsense. Chose to believe creation myths if you want, all countries have them, I imagine. Certainly, George Washington never chopped down a cherry tree as a child.

          The notions that modern Jews should have superior rights to non-Jews in he land or should be able to dispossess non-Jews from the land is repugnant.

          You criticize me for disparaging your sources and then dismiss mine out of hand. The quintessential kettle calling the pot black. Rashid Khalidi is a distinguished professor at Columbia. Benny Morris never recanted his thorough study of the expulsions.

          What the Zionists have done to the Palestinians is monstrous. When the Zionists atone for their actions, peace will be closer.

          • Sheri Oz says:

            The difference between you and me is that I read material you sent me and those authors you mentioned and I admit I have much to learn. The situation is much more complex than you seem to understand. You can continue to read my articles if you please but regardless of the topic you harp on the same tired anti-Zionist propaganda bytes and I will just ignore you comments from now on. (like you ignore my suggestions. You might even have found my article on Ras Ali interesting, and perhaps even the one on contrasting Druze views of the Nation State Law. Oh well.)

          • Drew says:

            Really? You read Nur Masalha and Rashid Khlaidi? You read The Lemon Tree by Sandy Golan; City of Oranges by Adam LaBor; Khirbet Khizeh by S. Yizhar translated by Nicholas de Lange and Yaacob Dweck, afterword by David Shulman; Genesis by John Judis?

  3. Drew says:

    You’re welcome. The bank accounts were initially frozen, in June 1948, weeks after Israeli independence, but were outright seized about a year later, contrary to Israeli assurances.

  4. Drew says:

    Hello, bury your head in the sand if you want. But maybe you should read this:

    http://povmagazine.com/articles/view/blue-box-review-the-big-moral-problem-of-history

    One quote from the story about Joseph Weitz: In 1940, he [Weitz] wrote: “After the Arabs are transferred, the country will be wide open for us…not a single village, a single tribe must be left…there is no other solution.”

    • Sheri Oz says:

      My last comment to you: people wrote a lot of things, facts speak differently. We are so ineffective at ethnic cleansing that the Israeli Arab population has grown tremendously, Arabs study in every institution, work in every profession, reach the highest positions in the country, etc. I have read much of what you think I should. You seem to think that reading that should be enough to convince me but I read on all sides of an issue and I read EVERYTHING critically. I saw no evidence you consider reading what I suggested. That makes this a one-sided conversation that I am no longer interested in continuing.

      • Drew says:

        The only recommendation that I didn’t read was Efraim Krash. And I did read one of his book and found it utterly lacking. I hadn’t decided on your most recent recommendation. I have read your posts.

        We agree that Israel has not been entirely successful in expelling non-Jews from the land. That is one reason why Israel has turned to cordoning off non-Jews in Gaza and Areas A and ab of the West Bank.

        But to deny that political Zionism did not entail the dispossession of non-Jews from the land in the face of the mountain of evidence to the contrary, in the face of actual expulsions, and in the face of a Israeli refusal to simply let people go home, is the height of denial.

        To blame the victims, to engage in collective punishment t and blame, that is a filthy game.

  5. Drew says:

    Here is the link to the other story that I tried to send you:

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-looking-the-nakba-dead-in-the-eye-1.9971486

    Acknowledging mistakes, even crimes, is a strength, not a weakness.

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